Toxic Cooking Show
Misogyny, $800 first dates, simps, and high-value women: Social media has been busy cooking up and feeding us an addictive but toxic slurry of trends over the past few years. Here at The Toxic Cooking Show we're two friends dedicated to breaking down these trends, terms, and taunts into their simplest ingredients to understand where they came from and how they affect our lives. Join us each week as we ponder and discuss charged topics like personal responsibility and "not all men" before placing them on our magical Scale O' ToxicityAny comments or topics you want to hear about write to us at toxic@awesomelifeskills.com
Toxic Cooking Show
The Myth of the Sigma Male
The modern manosphere has created a pantheon of male archetypes, but none quite as supposedly elusive and mysterious as the "Sigma Male." Emerging around 2017-2018, this concept markets itself as the rarest, coolest type of masculinity—the lone wolf operating outside traditional hierarchies while maintaining alpha-level respect.
But peek behind the curtain, and you'll find fascinating contradictions. The very examples held up as quintessential Sigmas—James Bond, Batman, John Wick—actually reveal the myth's fatal flaw. Each of these characters relies deeply on community and support systems. Bruce Wayne has Alfred. Bond has Q and an entire spy network. The truly independent man simply doesn't exist, and the glorification of extreme isolation contributes directly to the male loneliness epidemic ravaging modern society.
What's particularly striking is that genuinely confident, independent people rarely label themselves. When examining real-world figures sometimes referenced as Sigmas (like Keanu Reeves or David Bowie), we find individuals who openly acknowledged the communities that supported them. The loudest self-proclaimed Sigma Males tend to be those most desperately seeking validation and a sense of belonging—the very opposite of the archetype they claim to embody.
This paradox reveals something profound about modern masculinity: the desperate search for identity often leads to self-defeating behaviors. Men rejecting social connections in the name of independence find themselves isolated, vulnerable, and without the very community safeguards that keep us healthy and grounded. There's nothing wrong with introversion or independence, but when taken to extremes and worn as an identity shield, these traits become potentially deadly.
Have you encountered self-proclaimed Sigma Males in your life? We'd love to hear your experiences and perspectives—write to us at toxic@awesomelifeskills.com or find us on social media to continue the conversation.
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we break down toxic people into their simplest ingredients. I'm your host for this week, lindsay McLean, and with me is my fantastic co-host.
Speaker 2:Christopher Patchett, LCSW.
Speaker 1:Today's topic is the quote-unquote rarest kind of male in the manosphere, the Sigma male. Have you ever heard of Sigmas?
Speaker 2:I remember coming across them a couple times when we were doing our earlier episodes of like the alpha male and the simp and things like that. I don't really remember a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had heard the term. I don't know if it was either in researching that or just kind of on the internet. I think both. It does appear to have appeared around the late 2010s, I see, you know, 2017, 2018 kind of popping up around in there. So the Sigma male is a solitary masculine man. He is outside of the alpha beta hierarchy and he's the quote unquote lone wolf type person which already we have debunked this. If you want to hear us as baby podcasters which I don't recommend- you can go back to.
Speaker 1:I think it's our second ever episode was the alpha male. Yeah, it was there's like the get to know us episode, and then I'm pretty sure the the next one that we've released was the alpha male, so yeah, you want to hear us struggling, you can go listen to that, but in that we or you rather debunked the lone wolf.
Speaker 1:So the lone wolf idea is I believe and correct me if I'm wrong when we studied a bunch of wolves that were held in captivity and we're like wow, there's like a pack leader and there's one that does this and one that does that and kind of assigned them these roles within the pack. But that was held in captivity and then researchers went out and they watched real wolves in their natural environment and they were like damn, they're this alpha male like lone wolf thing doesn't really exist I don't remember there being like the lone wolf, like I remember when they said, like the alpha male was like the it's like the pack leader.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the pack leader. And and then, yeah, just as you said, when they actually looked at them in in the wild, that it was all total bullshit, that each wolf had a part of their, you know, within the family and everything like that, and both had equal jobs yeah, and I'm pretty sure I've read at some point.
Speaker 1:I thought this was that, and now I'm regretting that I didn't check this. So sorry to everyone, but wolves do live in packs, which implies that, like in general, you're not going to have a single wolf that's like out there doing its thing on the regular. That usually means something has gone wrong. There are animals, of course, that they're solitary and just vibing by themselves. That is usually not a wolf, though, and I also want to point out that this whole we're outside of the alpha beta hierarchy.
Speaker 1:You pick the name. That's a greek letter, like alpha and beta. That puts you within the hierarchy. You were within that, that little, that group, and I I get it. You know, myers-briggs types just aren't cutting it anymore. The gays get to call themselves fun names and have colorful flags. Like me, as a straight masculine man, I want to have fun too. All right, calm down, buddy, you can have a cool name. That's the vibe I get from a lot of these. Like I'm an alpha male, I'm a, a delta, an omega because there are more, by the way yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, there appear to be about like six different types.
Speaker 1:I think it was like alpha, beta, sigma, delta, omega and zeta. They're all in there. It's just like but okay, sigma is somehow not part of that hierarchy, even though it is. But okay, we're, we're too cool for school, we're not going to be part of it, right?
Speaker 1:So common Sigma male traits are that you're fairly introverted, you're very independent, you're a free thinker and very nonconformist. Those are the ones you see pop up the most when you look up like who is a Sigma male or what is a Sigma male? And basically it's somebody who's just, you know, doing, doing their thing, vibe, and spending a lot of time by themselves. An alpha male, but cool is the vibe that I get that you know you would. The type of person who calls themselves this and we'll get into that later sees themselves in this way and you can see this in examples of who are Sigma males. And it's very interesting that you don't see a lot of current Sigma males. You don't see a lot of people running around calling themselves this, but you see this a lot.
Speaker 1:People identify characters in movies. So classic examples James Bond, john Wick, bruce Wayne, rambo, like. This is your quote unquote Sigma male, the good alpha guy. I need to stop using my judgmental tone. I'm trying to be trying to provide like all different sides and I hear myself judging already. But yeah, you know, if you have to kind of point out you're like, we're like them, but cool, but good, again, that means you're within the hierarchy yeah, that's yeah, I mean like, okay.
Speaker 2:So like I mean bruce wayne, like I, you, wayne, I grew up as a comic book lover. He was just his own person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean really, there's no classification for him.
Speaker 1:I also want to point out again these are fictional characters. Yeah, these are not real people living their natural, authentic selves. These were creations of somebody's mind and I think that it's also telling that not only are they fictional characters, but many of them are kind of appear in a set period of American history. You don't find a lot of current examples of the Sigma male, james Bond, like that's. You know, bond does Bond things. I get that he's been around for forever because we just like put a new actor in each time, but still, you know the classic James Bond. That's a set time period that we are out of classic James Bond.
Speaker 2:That's a set time period that we are out of. Yeah, when I think of classic James Bond, I think of 1960s.
Speaker 1:Yep. Of those common traits that I listed, on the surface I think a lot of them appear pretty normal. If somebody came to me and said, yeah, I'm introverted, you know, if somebody came to me and said, yeah, I'm introverted, I'm pretty independent, I like to do my own thing, that does not immediately send alarm bells ringing in my head. Or if I meet that type of person, I'm not immediately like, oh, that's a walking red flag. Combined in the right way, they actually have the real potential to cause some issues. And starting with the non-conforming, free thinker part, because that's what really caught my attention when I was looking into this Curious to hear your take as a man. Men seem desperately to want to be cool and unique and mysterious. This seems to be something that they really want, and there's this obsession with being the man who doesn't. I'm doing the voice again.
Speaker 2:I need to not. That lasted all of about three minutes Right, non-judgmental?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's me. There seems to be this obsession with being the type of guy who doesn't take no for an answer. He does things the quote-unquote wrong way but gets to the right end Again. Think back to those examples that I used of you know, like a James Bond or a John Wick, that they may do really unconventional things and there may be people telling them like no, don't do that. And they go ahead and do it anyway and the right thing happens because they didn't listen to anybody. People were telling them not to and they went ahead and they did what they thought was right and good things happened. Why are men so obsessed with this?
Speaker 2:Let's see, get ready to hate me in five, four, three, two, one. Remember the episode that I did, I don't know, maybe about three, four months ago? No, what women Want, uh-huh, and the whole idea of I want a guy who's aggressive but not too aggressive. I want a guy who, well, if the whole thing is that aggression, that go-getter type thing, you can't have a guy who is a real go-getter and who listens.
Speaker 1:This is very true. I think it's a very hard line to walk and I get it. It's the same thing with confidence. I think we've talked about before that women like confidence. But it's where do you draw the line between I'm confident and I'm overconfident? Because when you cross into overconfident that's bad territory, but somehow you have to get up high enough, but not too high, but not too low. And I think this is one of those things where you know somebody who would want to identify themselves as a Sigma male is trying to figure out, where they're trying to find this right balance between being cool and mysterious and getting everyone's attention, but also being mysterious but getting their attention.
Speaker 2:You know, and and again, this kind of comes down to you know, as somebody who is very much out there, very much the type of person that I, if I'm hurt, I'm going to let you know. If you know, that's just the way that I am. I have heard that you don't have to tell me everything or leave a little bit to a mystery and it's just like okay, well, you know, you, you, you can't have somebody who's who's open and honest with you and at the same time, have like a a mystery to them yeah, it's one way or the other, it's, it's, yeah, it's one way or the other, you got to pick and choose at a certain point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and with the Sigma male, I think this is again one of those things where you can have somebody who is, you know, maybe not open all the time, so they're a little mysterious, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's also not necessarily a bad thing when you have somebody who identifies. As you know, I'm a free thinker, I'm non-conforming to society, but there's you got to be careful with that, because here's the thing you need a community. Social pressures exist for a reason.
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny that you brought up Batman earlier, because somebody, you know, the thing that I come to mind is somebody who's a mystery, somebody who doesn't conform to society. I mean, half of Bruce Wayne was all about the business I owned and he was a business owner and things like that. He had just this other half to him.
Speaker 1:He also has a fucking community. He has what's his, is it Alfred?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he also has Alfred, he has a Robin, he has so the. The thing that actually comes to my mind when you're talking about, like the, the Sigma male, is the Joker.
Speaker 1:Sigma's everywhere Like no.
Speaker 2:He's mysterious. I don't know if he's laughing at me or if he's going to kill me. He's the lone wolf.
Speaker 1:You're not wrong, I can definitely see it and I think this is something that, if you look at those examples I gave, they all have help. James Bond has help. He's got what's-his-face developing all the weapons for him. Yeah, that all of these people have actually a community and they have support. They're not just acting on their own with no regard to anyone else. That is a twisting of those ideas that I think people over time have kind of forgotten. They see it's like oh, he does everything by himself, a hundred percent. No, he doesn't.
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 1:There's always somebody there.
Speaker 2:Especially in today's world. It's pissed me off more and more every time that you know I got here on my own and it's just like. No, you actually didn't, no.
Speaker 1:You really didn't? Yeah, you did. There are so many factors that go into it that you have just forgotten or that aren't obvious or whatever, but almost guaranteed, every single one of us has gotten here through the help of others. Actually guaranteed 100%. Yeah, there's no way. Every single one of us has gotten here through the help of others. Actually guaranteed 100%. There's no way.
Speaker 1:There are things that you do on your own, but in general, you are as good as your community and that's why it's so important to not completely isolate yourself and be like I'm a lone wolf doing my lone wolf things and I don't need my friends, I don't need a community, I don't need a community, I don't need anyone to help me because they're going to tell me that I'm wrong.
Speaker 1:If people are judging you and people are telling you that you're wrong, it is actually important to take a step back and analyze why, and that's not to say, as soon as somebody says, hey, that's a stupid idea, you're like oh man, you're right, I shouldn't do this. But when you have your community which you should have and you come to them with an idea, if they're all telling you hey, man, I don't think that's a really good idea. If I suddenly was like you know what Fuck it, I'm going to sell all of my worldly possessions and I'm going to move to Thailand to start training in Muay Thai. I would hope that you know you, as my friend of 14 years, would probably try and talk to me. Actually, is it 15 years? It's almost 15 years at this point.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, god, not yet it will be no, yeah, it will be here in in about like six months, september, ish oh my god.
Speaker 1:But you know, I I would hope that you and my other friends would, at the very least, like, kind of ask me some questions and try and talk to me about to understand what it is that has, you know, convinced me that I must do this. And I would also hope that you would, you know, try and talk me through what are the pros, what are the cons of you doing this. That's why it's important to have this community that is Nope, nope. No, I should get it.
Speaker 2:I would say I think you should do it. It would make great entertainment for me. See and that right there tells me this is a bad idea. This is why we have friends. I'm like, I'll pay to get you to Thailand and you're like okay, something's definitely not good here.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm being used for fun, but but that's exactly as you talk to the people around you when you're making these big decisions and I would hope that the people in your life are there for you. And certainly at this point in my life I have made sure that the friends that I have, that I'm really close to, don't feel bad about calling me out if I do dumb shit in relationships, if I do just dumb shit in life. They will question me, they will let me know if they think I am doing the wrong thing.
Speaker 2:Now will you listen?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely not wrong thing now?
Speaker 2:will you listen?
Speaker 1:oh, absolutely not, but at least, at least we are there to tell you that you're doing some things exactly. So it means that you're not just completely flying by the seat of your pants, thinking that everything is hunky-dory and then suddenly it's not.
Speaker 2:You're like I didn't see this coming you're just sitting around thinking that I'm different Because I am different.
Speaker 1:I'm going to make it work. Okay, I'm special.
Speaker 2:Not that I would ever do that either.
Speaker 1:No, of course not. But it is important to have this network of friends, of confidants, people that you work with. It doesn't have to be you know, somebody you've known for 20 plus years. It's just people that are there for you and understand what it is that you're doing. And you can have different friends for different things, like within my friend group, for example.
Speaker 1:I probably tell everybody about like 80% of the same stuff You're all getting you know the big stories, but there are some friends that I may talk about a with that I wouldn't talk about that with somebody else, but somebody else I would talk about B and just you know, within that, because we have different, our friendships came about in different ways. We have sometimes different interests, different links to each other. That's a good thing. Different knowledge, different knowledge yeah, there are friends who you know have moved halfway across the world and have dealt with that, and so you can talk to them about that type of thing, whereas a friend who hasn't, you know I might not bring that up as often because you don't have that base, and so you're like, wow, sounds bad. Sorry, I can't. You know, I can commiserate, I can sympathize with you, but I can't empathize if you listen to one of our previous episodes no-transcript it bounce ideas off of make sure you're not doing dumb shit and insisting that you can do whatever you want because you're a free thinker who doesn't take crap from anybody else. You're a strong, independent man. That is how you end up alone and dead. Sorry to bring the mood down real fast there, but it's true. That is very true. It's true. That is very true Because men are already just.
Speaker 1:In general, men are more resistant to going to the doctors if there's something that's wrong of kind of taking care of themselves in general, like health-wise stuff. They often struggle to form deep friendships and bonds with other men, which means that they are far more likely to be lonely. Not all men, for once we can say that here but I think it is a common theme that men are more likely to do this. So if you already have somebody who identifies as very independent, as nonconformist, as free thinking, I think they are far more likely to be this type of person, which means they are far more likely to end up in a really bad situation because they didn't want to go to the doctor, they thought they could handle it on their own and now they've got like a horrific infection. They're really, really sick. They broke a bone that did not set properly because they refused to go to the doctor.
Speaker 2:There was something that was preventable or treatable at a certain stage that was not caught in time because they were like no, no, no, I'm using my judgmental voice there, you know, and it's unbelievable, like, thank God, you know, guys are not down to the point where they feel a little bit of a chest pain and they avoid going to the doctor. For you know, two weeks and what could have been just a simple. Here's a medication to clear up, like a little bit of fluid in your lungs, that same person landing it so bad that there's fluid inside and outside of their lungs and they end up in the hospital for two weeks. Thank God that never happens.
Speaker 1:No, that never happens. So, go on. That was beautiful, by the way.
Speaker 2:You know what? In my defense, I will say this I do blame the Navy for this, because of the fact that you could have your head chopped off and it's like. Stop being a pussy. Here's two Tom dolls and drink some water.
Speaker 1:But that kind of plays into you know you're supposed to be a strong, masculine man who takes care of yourself, who's independent, he doesn't need help from other people. And you get into that mindset and yeah, then it is hard to accept help, it's hard to accept medical help, it's hard to accept help realizing that you may not physically be able to do something anymore, that you are struggling to do certain tasks, even not just physical stuff, but maybe something at work, maybe something in your life. If you feel like you have to be hyper, independent and hyper, you know all on your own you will not go to other people for help and problems will just get worse. It does not make the problem go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah not make the problem go away. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's there's that. Then there's also the fact that social pressures exist for a reason. You know. There are a lot of bad faith actors. So they're out there and they're only held back because they would be punished If they did what they wanted. Driving is a great example. If there were no speed limits, if there were no driver's license, no tests, no punishments for doing whatever it is you want to do in your car, do you know how bad the roads would be? It would be like New York City 24-7.
Speaker 2:Having lived in New York City, that's true. Actually, who's worse, la or New York, because you've lived in New York City?
Speaker 1:That's true. Actually, who's worse, la or New York, because you've lived in both.
Speaker 2:Each has their own disadvantages. New York is more crowded so it takes a long time to get from point A to point B, which might be four or five miles. Yeah, la is not as crowded but it's more spread out. Time to get from point A to point B, which might be four or five miles. La is not as crowded but it's more spread out, so you're sitting in traffic for the same amount of time to get to a job that is 15 miles away, because everything is just so spread out like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but both of them are just known for having horrific traffic. Horrific that, yeah, but both of them are just known for having, like, horrific traffic, horrific drivers yeah. So yeah, we've all seen like there are people who still don't follow those social norms. Seatbelts Cars didn't used to come with seatbelts. Then we put seatbelts in, people said no, thank you, and they kept on dying and finally society had to step in and be like hey, you, okay there.
Speaker 2:I don't know anybody who doesn't wear their seatbelts. What?
Speaker 1:Huh, yes, you know, we wear our seatbelts because it keeps us alive, and we wear our seatbelts like the correct way across the chest because it keeps us alive. And we wear our seatbelts like the correct way across the chest because it keeps us alive. And once society was like you have to do this, there were people who started doing it. And then there were people who were like meh don't care. And so society had to be like that's a fine, Now you're getting pulled over by the police officer. And suddenly people were like you know, it's not so bad. There are reasons why we have these societal pressures and rules to force people, to try and force people. There are always certain people who don't want to follow.
Speaker 2:And there are certain reasons why we have loud music to drown out that beeping sound.
Speaker 1:Can't believe. You just outed yourself. So obviously this type of social pressure is different from you know, the one that says that men have to have a six pack and women have to wear makeup all the time. But I think it's still important to acknowledge the fact that it's part of the same. Umbrella of things is that we as a society kind of push certain things, and sometimes we push bad things and sometimes we push good things, but it's there for a reason.
Speaker 1:So if you simply say I don't conform, I refuse to conform, I refuse to listen to what anybody thinks about me, you're going to be really lonely. You're going to be really lonely. You're going to be like completely isolated, which, speaking of the word of the week, is isolation. Yay, I need to try and find a positive one. I think all of mine have been negative. We'll get some good ones in there. So isolation is when you are cut off from everyone else. I would say it's a strong form of loneliness, it's what can lead to being lonely, and it is it's like in the same bracket. You see what I mean.
Speaker 2:I, you know, and, and one of the biggest things with isolation is that is like probably one of the number one contributors to depression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and death. We're not meant to be by ourselves. There are definitely people who are introverted enough. They're like nope, I'm just doing my thing over here. That's a choice. When you are isolated, it's less of a choice, and then you're going to be lonely, you're going to be stressed, you're going to be depressed and that's how you end up dead. Yay, yay, deb. So yeah, that's why friends and society are so important, because you're only as good as the people around you and your community, and that's what will keep you feeling good, you feeling connected with people. You'll be able to bounce ideas off them, you'll be able to find a partner, you'll be able to have friends, you'll be able to form these connections.
Speaker 1:And this male obsession with doing it all on your own is extremely toxic. I mean, look at the male loneliness epidemic that we are supposedly experiencing. This is related to that, because men are not making friends and men are insisting and I'm talking obviously in general, like in very large terms, when I say men here, men are insisting like no, I've got to do this myself, I've got to be a masculine man who's independent. And then he looks around. He's like wow, I'm 40 and I don't have a single friend.
Speaker 2:Whoops. Well, so why do you say supposedly having the epidemic that we're supposedly having? Why do you use the word supposedly?
Speaker 1:Because I think this has been going on for far, far longer. People are talking about it like it's this new thing that just appeared in you know 2023 or something, and I I think it goes back further. I think we've just become more aware of it. I do think it is getting worse with social media, our good friend, that people who were kind of on that edge are being pushed it farther into it. But I think that in general, this idea of not idea, but the problem that men have of not having close friends and bonds and people to rely on in their life, has been going on for far longer. We just haven't necessarily talked about it or realized that it was sitting there just like barely covered up.
Speaker 1:I mean, think about all of the boomer couples where she does all of the planning for him. She makes sure that he goes out to golf, makes sure that he does this, she organizes a brunch with another couple. The wives of these men are taking care of that aspect for them. But if the wife was gone, that man would not be in a place to do those things himself. Does that answer your question? To do?
Speaker 2:those things himself. Does that answer your question, and I think that this is definitely something that we will talk about in a future episode. Fuck, but yeah, I think that, yes, it's been an ongoing problem, but I think that, thankfully, it is being brought to light.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Just like you hear about, like mental health, you know, being a thing that will. Mental health has been a thing since the dawn of time.
Speaker 1:It didn't just like crawl out of the dark in 2011.
Speaker 2:Like ah, I'm the thing, but but it's just the fact that it's becoming more acceptable to talk about it and to be open about it and things like that. So this is pretty much just the same thing that this has been an ongoing problem. It's just that lately it's been given more light.
Speaker 1:It's been given more light. I think it's becoming radicalized Again. People are being shifted further into it, as opposed to just kind of being on the edge because of stuff like social media. That will create this bubble where that's all you're seeing. If that's all you're seeing is somebody who was already susceptible, already feeling isolated, then you may go down this rabbit hole and then people around you are like oh my gosh, this is wow, this is huge.
Speaker 1:Where you know, maybe in previous generations it would never have gotten that bad. It would. It was still there, you were still that person at your core, but because you didn't have TikTok feeding you all these videos about it, you may not have gotten so involved in it. But yeah, this is definitely something we're going to cover. So something I want to go back to, though, with the Sigma males, is that I found an interesting contradiction in here. So again, the Sigma male, he's not an Alpha male, he's not within the Alpha-Beta hierarchy, he's none of that. He's completely nonconformist. He's a complete free thinker. If you are actually that type of person, you're not calling yourself a Sigma male, because you're confident in who you are and you're not trying to fit into a little box and you're not trying to scream to the whole world about how cool and mysterious and independent and strong you are. You just are.
Speaker 2:I think that just kind of comes down to that. Everybody wants to belong.
Speaker 1:And I get that, and I get the whole point of having different names for different personalities or different groups, so that you can say I'm an A, but I'm not an A and I'm a C. You're allowed to be multiple things. That's absolutely okay. But I think in this particular case, the people who are running around calling themselves a Sigma male have completely missed the point of what a Sigma male probably technically really is. I mean, elon Musk likes to be like I'm a Sigma male. No, you're not. Musk likes to be like I'm a Sigma male no, you're not. You cannot, as everything we've just talked about.
Speaker 1:If you're going to run around on stage doing Nazi salutes, revving a chainsaw, talking about how comedy we got to bring back comedy, why is it he said, I don't even care, Fuck that man. You're constantly bragging about your wealth. You're constantly bragging about what you can do. There's nothing private about your life. That is not a Sigma male, quite frankly. That's Alpha male bullshit. Right there, the strutting around I'm so cool, you know, drawing attention to yourself, that's that. That would not be a sigma male. Again, see the like.
Speaker 1:Very introverted, very focused on yourself, on your own things oh fuck the other just for context, the other kind of like names that I have seen tossed around as contemporary real life quote unquote Sigma males are the Muskrat, as we just said Steve Jobs, keanu Reeves and David Bowie.
Speaker 2:That is like a huge range of Right.
Speaker 1:Even cutting out Muskrat, just looking at Steve Jobs, kenner, he was David Bowie. That's a little bit more, but still I don't-. If you just gave me those three names and said what do these people have in common characteristic-wise, I would struggle yeah.
Speaker 2:I would struggle yeah.
Speaker 1:And I also don't see these people calling themselves that, which again goes back to my previous point of like. If you actually are this, you don't say it. So there's no way to really be able to know and be like. This person is a whatever, because they're not proudly, you know, stamping it on things and like putting giant you know, I'm a Sigma male bumper stickers on their car Because they don't need to.
Speaker 2:Because, especially like Keanu Reeves and David Bowie, like they both very much were aware of the people surrounding them that helped them get to where they are. Yeah, the people surrounding them that helped them get to where they are, yeah, like, yeah, they might be the single male, uh, the the bachelor type, but it doesn't mean that they were just like I got here on my own. No, they, they, they recognize the importance of community, especially especially fucking keanu right, it's.
Speaker 1:You know. Just because you're introverted again see all the other points I made that does not make you. There's so much that goes into it. I really think that this is. These names that people are tossing around are just people that they would. The internet would like to be a quote-unquote sigma male because it's somebody that they would like to look up to and they want to be able to be like. Oh, it's this person, I want to be like him, cause that's cool. Then just say it, just be like. I want to be like David Bowie Problem solved. You don't need to make David Bowie a Sigma. I don't think he would have wanted that. So where do you see us going from from here with Sigma males?
Speaker 2:Just kind of from what you're saying, like it doesn't even sound like it really exists. That is just basically like somebody saying that I mean, I could call myself a Sigma male.
Speaker 1:You know I'm very introverted and you don't care what people necessarily think about you. You're going to do what you want to do. You're focused on yourself, bettering yourself, kind of like, within your little lane. I mean, yeah, by those standards I would agree.
Speaker 2:But would I ever call myself a Sigma male? Fuck, no, you know, like I'm, I'm. I'm going to get you a bumper sticker that says that Should I put it next to the Toxic Cooking Show bumper sticker that I have?
Speaker 1:Yes, do you still have the dog, dad one?
Speaker 2:I love my Puggle.
Speaker 1:There we go. I knew you had something about a dog on yours.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, beautiful. But yeah, I, I think that is just. It sounds like another bullshit label that guys are giving themselves, kind of like the the alpha male, where it's been debunked that there is no such thing as an alpha male, that let's call for what it is. You're just a dick, you know. And there are many forms of being a dick and all of them want to say, like you know, like I'm being a dick because I'm an alpha male. It just sounds like a label that people kind of put on themselves to justify their way of doing things.
Speaker 1:I would agree with that because I think that in general you are who you are and obviously there's some fluidity in that. If you're introverted, how introverted are you feeling in any given moment? And you can kind of push yourself outside of your limit and be a little more extroverted here, or you can withdraw and be more introverted in this type of situation or in this period of your life. But more or less, if you are a certain way, if you're the type of person who doesn't like the limelight, that's not going to change. You're not going to suddenly wake up one day and be like I'm going to be a star baby.
Speaker 1:We all know those people who have always wanted to be front and center. There are certain type of people like that and there are certain people who absolutely do not want to be front and center. And if you're somebody who likes the limelight, that's okay. If you're somebody who cares a little bit about what people think about you, that's okay. This honestly gives me in-log vibes. I guess it would be in-lob, not like other boys, if you have to say oh, I'm not an alpha male, I'm a cool alpha male, or I'm a sigma, which means I'm really mysterious, you're really trying to separate yourself, which means you do actually care what people think about you. Which seems to be a vital rule in being a Sigma is you don't care what society, what other people think you do what you feel is right and you go from there. So yeah, I don't think they exist. In a weird way, I mean.
Speaker 1:I think we're going to continue to see it at kind of a low level in the media, because it definitely is positioned as something really cool and really something that you want to be. I was reading, like these various men's websites about Sigma males and doing the research for this and a lot of them talked about again this is a very rare type of man, but it definitely came across as this is a super cool dude. You want to be this dude, but if you are having to work to be that dude I don't think you are and that's okay. We don't all have to be the same. Imagine that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't see this going too much of anywhere, is I think? Like I said, I think it's just people who want to give themselves a label and they just look at the coolest label, that that they can find, and then they try to match those qualities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that doesn't make you that person. If you're just aiming for the quality to be like I, shall do this. You haven't understood that. It is who you are and you could probably learn if you're close you could lean into that. But I don't think that type of person is out here searching how do I become a Sigma male? Yes, I looked that up. I have to wonder sometimes what Google thinks about us when we're doing research for these shows. I worry On our scale of toxicity. Where would you put the Sigma male? Is he a green potato? Make you a little sick if you eat it, but you can just scrape off the green parts and you'll be fine. Is he a death cap mushroom 50, 50 chance of death or coma, even if it's been cooked? Or is he a delicious but deadly last snack, especially when mixed with lime jello antifreeze?
Speaker 2:mean, if you go by the actual definition of a Sigma meal, I would have to say it's probably antifreeze, because again, the first thing that comes to mind is the fucking Joker, If you actually want to go by the definition. But these guys who are calling themselves Sigma meals, it's fucking green potato, it's just like okay, that's nice. Shut the fuck up.
Speaker 1:Next. That just sums it up perfectly, because, as I was writing this, I was struggling to think about where I would put it.
Speaker 1:It's like, on the one hand, this is super, super toxic, on the other hand, I think, real people who are just living their life and have no clue that this type of thing exists or not striving for it. I don't think it's necessarily toxic at all. I think you can be independent, free-thinking, introverted and be a completely normal person and not have any problems. But when you were actively seeking to promote this and when you're really pushing this is like this is the best way to do stuff, I think that gets really, really toxic. I mean, I have watched somebody in my life who completely went down this path and went from being a very I think he's still in, I don't know where he is now very outgoing person, love to hang out with people, love to talk with them, and he kind of got this idea that he needed to be a businessman with a business plan. He couldn't tell anyone because he needed to be mysterious about it and he just he shut everyone out of his life because he was so focused on being independent. It had to be a hundred percent. Him Didn't want to talk to anyone about the ideas and then when he did talk to people about them, they were like my mans, that's, that's, that's not a good idea, and he would get very, very upset about this because this was his idea. I was like but these are your friends and not listening to whatever society said. He really went hard on that.
Speaker 1:If society tells you no, they're against you, they don't like people who don't conform and they're trying to take you down. Look, sometimes that is true. Sometimes it's because you have a dumb fucking idea. I'm really sorry, but you do, and everyone around you is trying to tell you this and trying to help you out. Nobody was being nasty, but he really doubled down and he lost quite a lot, like just in his life, of stuff that he had built up. He lost a lot because he wouldn't listen to anybody and all of a sudden it was like oh shit, I'm out of money, I don't have a visa, I don't have friends like that. It can really get to that point quite quickly. That was only within about like two years that that happened. Damn, yeah, it's, and that's why it can be extremely toxic. So I think, yeah, somebody who is striving and I don't know if he would have considered himself or does he's still alive.
Speaker 1:If he does consider himself a Sigma male. I wouldn't be surprised if that was something that he felt drawn to calling himself, and that is a perfect example of Anna freeze, the people who are just, yeah, it's who they are green potato yeah I think this is the first time we've had such a a big split in there, but it is somehow both.
Speaker 1:so if you know anybody who identifies as a sigma male, or if you yourself identify as a Sigma male, we would love to hear from you. You can write to us at toxic, at awesome life skillscom. Also, if you're in the U? S and you're listening on Spotify, um, I think you can use that like send us a text feature. Somebody did that. They sent us hate, mail so just saying that worked really well so just saying that worked really well.
Speaker 1:Good times good times it was like a shocking email to see come in. I was like, oh fuck, Our first piece of fan mail.
Speaker 2:And the website was so excited.
Speaker 1:It's like you got mail Fuck you. That was pretty much it, yeah, but you can write to us there. You can also find us on non-toxic social media. We are on Facebook, we are on Instagram and we technically have a Blue Sky account, although nothing has been published yet. Gee, I don't know why.
Speaker 2:Not going to mention names.
Speaker 1:Not going to mention names. Definitely Molly's fault. So until next week. This has been the Toxic Cooking Show. We'll see you then. Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye.
