Toxic Cooking Show
Misogyny, $800 first dates, simps, and high-value women: Social media has been busy cooking up and feeding us an addictive but toxic slurry of trends over the past few years. Here at The Toxic Cooking Show we're two friends dedicated to breaking down these trends, terms, and taunts into their simplest ingredients to understand where they came from and how they affect our lives. Join us each week as we ponder and discuss charged topics like personal responsibility and "not all men" before placing them on our magical Scale O' ToxicityAny comments or topics you want to hear about write to us at toxic@awesomelifeskills.com
Toxic Cooking Show
Cult Dynamics: Breaking Down the Dangerous Ingredients
A seemingly innocent church invitation from a workplace crush led Christopher into the unsettling world of cult recruitment—complete with love bombing, isolation tactics, and a baptism offer on day two. This jarring personal story opens our deep exploration into the psychology of cults and why they're far more prevalent in society than most realize.
Cults aren't just remote compounds with strange religious practices. They're organizations built around absolute authoritarian leadership, financial exploitation, and systematic isolation that can manifest in religious groups, political factions, and even wellness communities. What makes cults truly dangerous is how they exploit our fundamental human needs for belonging, validation, and purpose.
This week Christopher Patchet, LCSW and Linday McClain examine the warning signs that help identify cult-like behavior: leaders with questionable backgrounds demanding unquestioning loyalty, recruitment tactics pushing for quick commitment, and the systematic dismantling of outside relationships. Most troubling is the financial dependency created when groups demand significant portions of members' income while providing minimal transparency about how funds are used.
For those with loved ones already ensnared in cult dynamics, direct confrontation typically backfires. Maintaining a non-judgmental connection provides a crucial lifeline for when doubts eventually arise. Recovery from cult involvement is complex, often requiring former members to relearn emotional expression beyond the limited range permitted within the group.
The most powerful defense? Education. Understanding these dynamics can help protect you and those you care about from toxic group influence. Whether you're curious about cult psychology or concerned about controlling dynamics in your own community, this episode provides crucial insights into recognizing and avoiding these dangerous systems of control.
Hi and welcome to Toxic Cooking Show, where we break down toxic people down to their simplest ingredients. I'm your host, christopher Patchett LCSW.
Speaker 2:And I'm Lindsay McLean.
Speaker 1:I want to start off before going into the topic, I want to start off with giving you a little story.
Speaker 2:Ooh.
Speaker 1:I was a fresh social worker and I was working at a private psychiatric hospital and, as I was waiting for this one position to open up, I was working at a sister hospital the unit that I was working at. I ended up I met this really cool girl and she was a med tech.
Speaker 1:Med techs are people that they're the first line of defense. They're usually the ones that a patient will go up to and say like hey, like you know, like I need extra socks or I need like an extra blanket or whatever, or if they have like a question to ask the social worker, then the med tech will come back and they'll get the social worker or the nurse or whoever. So usually they're going to be the people that the patient has the most interaction with. And one time I see her, she's in the back and she's like reading a book and I was like oh, oh, you know, like what are you reading? I just I had a huge, huge crush on this girl. Like I mean, yeah, and and so like I mean that's a good question to ask, to like spark a little conversation yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So what are you reading? So she's telling me she's reading about this, a book from her church.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, you know what religion are you. And she's like she's part of the Church of God. And I'm like, okay, okay, and so I started asking questions and showing interest and things like that. And she's telling me about her religion. I'm like, okay, okay, cool, cool. So she comes at the end she's like you know, hey, you know, it'd be really nice if you joined me. I'd really love for you to come with me and everything like that. So me being the person I am, I'm like oh, you know, damn nice date I'll be able to'm like oh, you know, damn nice date I'll be able to, like, you know, go to church with her and then maybe we can go out for ice cream or whatever hang out together hang out together.
Speaker 1:No problems here no red flags, so so I was like, okay, yeah, sure, sure, sure, and. And so I get to her church later on that night and I meet her outside. I'm like, oh, hey, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah. And so I give her a hug and she brings me upstairs. She brought me into this room, she sits down. I sit down, like you know, kind of next to her and everything, and so we're talking for a couple of seconds and then, within maybe two minutes, some guy comes in. I'm just like, oh, fucking cockplucker.
Speaker 2:Little did you know.
Speaker 1:Little did I know. So this guy comes in and he's telling me the whole history of their Bible. I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2:How did you keep a straight face? That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1:You know? So here's the thing. Okay, so I would consider myself to be a Buddhist atheist, and you know that.
Speaker 1:But for everybody else, I consider myself to be a buddhist atheist. You know, and you know that. But you know, for everybody else, I I consider myself to be a buddhist atheist. I I believe in in buddhism as far as like a way, way of life, but you know, as far as like anything else, I I would say that I'm more of an atheist type person. I will have to say that they do a very good job of presenting the, the bible, and like it's.
Speaker 1:You know, it's one of these things where, if you don't think about it, it makes absolute sense yeah, yeah but the moment that you think about it for five seconds or more, then you're like you, just see the hole yeah, you're like wait, wait, but but you know he's gone into, like how the the bible did this perfect prediction of everything and how, like, how everything is so like, exact with what it says beforehand oh yeah, yeah, the bible never contradicts itself so never.
Speaker 1:So I, I'm sitting there, I'm like, huh, okay, okay, okay. And then, like you know, like the back of my head, like I'm kind of going through the information, I'm like okay, whatever, yeah, but at least I'm sitting next to this girl. Yeah, get to look over, and she looks over at me, and you know, just to see if I'm getting everything, and I give her a little smile. So at least I get that much.
Speaker 2:That just tells me how downhill this thing is.
Speaker 1:At the end there the guy, he comes up to me. He's like like actually, you know what you know? Uh, I really want you to come in tomorrow and and just you know, like there's a couple things I I want to kind of talk to you about and everything like that.
Speaker 1:I'm like sure you know worst case scenario at least I get to like spend time with, uh, so wrong say goodbye and everything like that and and uh, I was just like, okay, you know, I'll be back tomorrow same time, come back in next day same time. See this person. And I say, like you know, like hey, how's it going? Blah, blah, uh. She brings me up to the same room and I'm like cool, like you know, like at least I'll get like a couple seconds to like talk to her and everything. And so she's like, oh, you know, like uh, and so I sit down. And then as soon as I sit down, she leaves.
Speaker 1:I'm like mother fucker. So guy comes in, nothing. He's telling me more about like you know how, how everything is perfect and and how all these uh things are, are perfectly aligned and you know this, that and the other. And I'm like whatever, like fuck. So at the very, very end maybe about an hour and a half, two hour speech of of all this, yeah, yeah and maybe about an hour and a half two hour speech of all this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he's like. So you know, with all that being said, like what do you think? And I'm trying to be nice I'm like okay, you know, like, yeah, you know, I totally can understand how you believe this and everything like that. And you know he's like well, here let me show you something. And he brings me into another room and it's like a bathtub type thing and he's like, you know, like we do our like baptism's there, and did he want?
Speaker 2:to baptize you right there. Yes, oh no, stranger danger. Stranger danger, by the way.
Speaker 1:Pat. So he's showing me this and I'm just like, okay, Nice.
Speaker 2:Wait, but are you baptized, Like already?
Speaker 1:I believe so. I'm sure my mom would have had me baptized.
Speaker 2:I kind of assumed you were because you grew up Catholic area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brought up Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got the little baby. Yeah, yeah, up Roman Catholic so like I was a little baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I got the, uh, the dunk. So so he's, you know, he showed me the, the bathtub, and he's like this is where we do our baptisms and things like that. And then he's like would you like to be baptized? I was like, oh, oh, would you like to be baptized? I was like, oh, no, no, I don't think I'm ready yet. And so he's like, okay, okay, you know, take your time. And so he's like well, we're about to have dinner. Like I would love for you to be able to join me, uh, join us for dinner. I'm like, cool, like you know, like, okay, dinner now, maybe I get cool, like you know, like, okay, dinner Now, maybe I get to sit across from you know, this person, this girl, and at least get a couple minutes conversation with this girl. And so I'm like, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:So we go downstairs and as soon as we go downstairs, I see men on one side, women on the other side. I'm like, oh, fuck. So I'm sitting there and they pray, they're thanking the Lord for the food and all that. And then we have somebody who's joining us and looking at maybe joining the church, and I'm like, better not say me, better not say me, better not say me. And Christopher Patchett, you know, like, please stand down. I'm standing up. I'm like everybody's applauding, like welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm like, oh fuck, gotta get out of here. So we have dinner, welcome, welcome. I'm like, oh, fuck, gotta get out of here. So we have dinner. We're talking for a little bit and then, finally, when dinner was over with, I, go upstairs, I go to my car and the one guy he's there, he's like yeah, you know, this Saturday we're going to have activities, blah, blah, blah, this, that and the other.
Speaker 1:And you want to come? Well, activities, blah, blah, blah, this, that and the other. And you want to come? Well, this Saturday I already have plans. But you know, damn, you know I'd love to, and you know, like, Darn, I'm just so busy for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:So so I was just like he's like, oh well, well, like, let me get your number and, and you know, I'll give you a call and maybe next week we'll, we'll get together and everything. I was like sure nice to say though.
Speaker 1:So I gave him my number and and I was like okay, this girl is not worth, like I don't care how cool, how nice, how hot, she is not worth it. So I I go home, uh, and I was like you know what? There were some things about it. It just really hit me as as cult, like yeah so you know the the I.
Speaker 1:I looked online and I was just curious of like okay, is it me or is it just like? You know like that, or am I like really seeing, like you know like something here? And so I looked online. I saw YouTube videos of it and people were saying that, yes, you know like, as soon as I joined you, you know they wanted me to break away from my family. They wanted to.
Speaker 1:You know like, I had to donate like 33 of my uh pay what so I mean, it was just like and you know story after story of like people saying like, yeah, yes, this is a cult, stay the fuck away.
Speaker 2:I was like anything that makes you break off contact with friends or family. Anything that tells you that's like, if they try and dissuade you, they don't love you. Instant, like 10,000 red flags, run away, run away so fast you are getting way ahead of me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shut up, way ahead of me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shut up. Damn you, lindsay. Aw, I knew I was gonna get the guard voice.
Speaker 1:Join my cult.
Speaker 2:The cult of Molly. That would be Molly's cult first off. You better put our Queen EP on top.
Speaker 1:You know what? I'm already a member, so you are Motherfucker. Give me 33% more treats.
Speaker 2:So I can puke them all up over your bed, god.
Speaker 1:Good times, good times, was it? So today's episode talking about cults, and a lot of times when we think about cults we think automatically to like religious cults, and there I mean there are. The idea of a cult is it's more of a mental thing, so like Christianity, judaism, things like that, not a cult, you know it's a religion.
Speaker 1:Right, there are sectors of each of these. There are sectors of each of these, but as a whole, like, okay, you're going in, you have these beliefs, you gather up and everything like that it's a unity type thing. Cool, go for it. However, you know, like the whole mentality that kind of goes into a cult and everything like that, and these were some things that you were just saying about and things that I'm going to go into.
Speaker 2:Sorry. I just got too excited.
Speaker 1:So I was looking up about, like, what exactly constitutes as a cult. So one of the things is absolute, authoritarian, without accountability. So everything that is being said, everything that is being done, absolutely necessary, it's for the betterment of our group. It's for the betterment of our group. It's for the betterment of whatever.
Speaker 2:And I assume too that would apply to the leader of the cult being able to say do this, don't do that, and you would have to follow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a very absolute, like I'm right. There's no question about it. So it's a lot of times the leader is going to be asking for people to have absolute loyalty, obedience. You're going to do what I say, you're never going to question what I say, and that's going to be kind of the mentality of the leader there. So it's absolute, authoritarian, without accountability. Anything that does go wrong is going to be somebody else's fault. It's going to be useful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be something along the lines of so like like a religious cult is going to be something along the lines of so like like a religious cult is going to be an outsider that that tried to knock down our, our way of living, an outsider who? Who doesn't agree with us, and therefore you know they're. They're trying to ruin what we have. If anything goes wrong within, it's either swept under the rug, gaslighting, manipulation.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times you hear about these scandals that happen in these cult-like churches, where it's just like oh yeah, they'll find out that the pastor abused a whole bunch of kids over the years and people knew and didn't do anything. It was just like, oop, nothing happened, pay them off, move them to another church if need be.
Speaker 1:Exactly, or they'll tell the people who it was done to that. Uh no, you're seeing things wrong, you know or worse, are the ones that are like.
Speaker 2:You brought this upon yourself because, you were being an evil person and this is more in like religious cults that you'll see like that level of of nastiness, but like you got the cancer, you got sexual assaulted because you didn't follow our teachings.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If you had, you wouldn't have been assaulted. It's not actually how that works, okay.
Speaker 1:Another thing is zero tolerance for criticism or questions, and so one of the things is is that you know, just as I was saying before, absolute obedience, loyalty.
Speaker 1:The moment that you start questioning this person or the moment that you say like hey, I don't like this about this person, then it raises red flags of like you know, like oh well, maybe you need to be reeducated, and that reeducation it could be very damaging. Like hey, we're going to put you in a separate room by yourself, we're going to threaten you, we're going to do all these things to you. Yeah, I mean the moment that you start questioning something. The moment that you start questioning something, they're going to see that as a sign of weakening of the person. So I've worked with people in cults and everything like that. And the moment where it's just even a simple question of like hey, I didn't understand this, this seems a a little like unclear there, right away, they're going to start taking that person in and being like okay, we're going to have like a huge conversation and and really try to force you to understand.
Speaker 2:You know, from this point, you know like you should you have to as the cult, because if you let somebody question something, no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding the budget. So, as I kind of said before about like when I looked up about the church, where you know like 30%, I mean shit, that's a lot that's a lot of money.
Speaker 2:I mean, even if you were only quote unquote, required to give 10%, that's a lot to be required to give monetarily yeah, yeah I don't know a lot of people who could have just like 10, let alone 30, of their income, just like gone, you know, and and that's where like okay, where the dinner?
Speaker 1:that?
Speaker 2:Yep, that's how they pay for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's how they're paying for that. They're paying for a lot of these activities that you know within the church. So that guy who was telling me about like, oh, come on Saturdays, you know like we do this, this, this and this, so your entire life is based around that, that church.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or that group or that group Cause again quotes don't just have to be a church type thing is mentality more than anything. And then again you know, with, with the financial disclosure, you're not you. You don't pay 30 of your your check just for food, not, you know, like the, the they're taking a huge chunk of that too, and part of that is to make you financially reliant on this, because if you are putting that much of your money and then you figure that you also have to put, you know, like on average, and it's probably grown 30% to housing, and I don't know anybody you know that's to recommend it, but you know the way people are a little bit higher than that, unfortunately, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, unfortunately, today's society, as for a hell of a lot more than 30%. But so I mean that's right there, that's 60%.
Speaker 2:You still got taxes, you still got living expenses bills.
Speaker 1:So it's hard to save money in order to say like, okay, you know what? Fuck this, I'm out. Where are you gonna go, you know, because you don't have anything in the bank you don't have any friends you don't have any friends. You know and this is another thing unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involved evil conspiracies and persecutions.
Speaker 2:What strikes me the most about all of this is, despite the number of kind of like things you need to have to make a cult, I can still think of numerous groups that I'd be like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, meets all the requirements. This one, oh yeah, meets like 99 requirements.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, there's a lot out there I'm not sure what that says about our world today you know and, yeah, you know again, this is what I'm saying like it's not just religion, it's it's a whole mentality because, like, this is a huge key of things, like you know, you're either with us with us or you're against us. You know the, the people who are not with us. They're trying to destroy you know this good thing. They're trying to destroy the things that we have. They're horrible people, people. They dehumanize people and things like that. And then there's all the agenda to strike fear into people Like anybody who is not within this group is people that are going to hurt you. These are the people that are going to cause sexual assault and things like that. No, people are people like just as many people inside is going to be just as villainous as the people on the outside. You can have a group of even 10,000 people without a couple of bad seeds in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter what group they belong in. There are always bad people unfortunately, there are always going to be bad people. Yeah, I mean, if you're not in this group, then those are the bad people. Everybody here. We're good.
Speaker 2:Well, you need to do that too. It's like all these other things it isolates people, it cuts them off, it makes them need the group even more, because if I'm scared of everyone else, then I'm not going to try and go make friends, I'm not going to try and interact with them, I'm not going to try and understand them. I'm going to come closer and closer to home, home being my cult, and I don't want to leave.
Speaker 1:And this a belief of former fathers are always wrong or leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave. So I've seen a lot of times where quotes any family members, people who I've seen, people who were born into cults where the moment that they start asking questions or they decide to leave, they're ostracized from their family. Everybody, friends, you're gone.
Speaker 1:You are dead to us or you're a piece of shit or anything. And and even, like I said, I mean even within families where, if they are not with us, this is where you get a lot of the arguments, you know, like the, you know like dorm, family get togethers and things like that, where people are yelling back and forth at each other, saying like you know you're wrong and you're wrong and you know you're just trying to see, you know like the destruction of whatever.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And it's just like, how about showing the fuck up and, just you know, enjoying family time? You know like, oh, no, no, no, no I do that when we can scream at each other?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, and that's the thing, that whole mentality you're either with us or you're against us. A lot of cults are going to have abusive members. So sexual abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse A lot of times there's going to be things where a lot of people don't realize how mental abuse is just as harsh as sexual and physical. A lot of people tend to forget that they think of physical, that you're seeing those scars, you're seeing those bruises, you're seeing those scars, you're seeing those bruises and sexual being a physical thing many of the times, but the whole mental aspect of it where, yeah, I mean if my life or my livelihood was dependent on this and all of a sudden, like everybody is telling me that I'm a piece of shit because I think one thing differently, like that's going to scar you know, your, your mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even just seeing this stuff happening, maybe within the group, and worrying that and saying it to someone else, and then you know, getting this reeducation or getting ostracized from the group and it's all you have.
Speaker 1:Followers feeling that they're never able to be good enough, which to to this. This is one of these things where it's very we all do this to to a degree. You know, a lot of times when I'm, when I'm working with people like I, one of the biggest things that I I've helped people with is giving yourself credit for things, because a lot of times I'll kind of make the example that you're walking into a place and your hands are full and somebody gets to the door. They hold it open. They hold it open for like five, ten seconds longer. You know, let you go in. Yeah, what do most people say?
Speaker 2:I'm laughing Because I know you have a personal vendetta against people who don't say thank you and I personally support your method for dealing with that. You're welcome. I mean, look, there are so many ways you can say thank you in that situation. Like you can literally say thank you, you do the smile and nod like there's a way. There's a way to show that you saw that and you're thanking the person yeah, yeah, I, you know.
Speaker 1:Even the smile and nod, like okay, you know, is not the actual, but like that and you're thanking the person. Yeah, yeah, I, you know. Even the smile, not like okay, you know, is not the actual, but like you're, you're at least acknowledging, like okay, thank you, you know, like smile not, you know, I'll smile, nod back and and let you go. Uh, live your merry little life. But you know, you know.
Speaker 2:Beware not saying thank you to Patches holding a door open for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will. I will be that asshole that comes in right behind you yelling you're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 2:Love it. I absolutely love it when you do that.
Speaker 1:Like I said, if you don't want to say thank you, fine, but most people are going to say thank you. Some people, you know, like the smile or not or something like that. But when it comes to ourselves, we don't give ourselves credit for doing, you know, good things when we hold the door open, because a lot of us we will just kind of say to ourselves, well, that's what I would hope that somebody would do for me. It should just be normal part of society.
Speaker 1:Well no, unfortunately, you're actually doing something nice, you're doing something special for the other person. So that's why, you know, most people will say like thank you, or at least acknowledge it. And the thing is is that when it comes to ourselves like, unless we are going into a burning building and saving like 20 babies, we won't say to to ourselves like you know, like hey, I did something good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know, this whole thing of like followers feeling that they were never going to be good enough, there is you know, they kind of play off of that that mentality that this is the way things should be. So if you do something good, then you know it's because that's the way things should be. So if you do something good, then it's because that's the way things should be. But the only way that you can ever do something or be good is if you do something way beyond any expectations. Well, like shit.
Speaker 2:Of course, because now you're always stuck striving for that thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it doesn't matter how much that you donate to the church, it doesn't matter how much that you spend volunteering for the church, it doesn't matter how much you give into the church or the group. Whatever you did is just the way it should be. So you're taking away that. Whatever you did is just the way it should be, so you're taking away that. That whole like thing of like you know that we did something good or we did something special. Because no, if, if you're volunteering 60 hours to the, to the group, why didn't you donate 62 hours to the group?
Speaker 2:Yeah, come on. You know, we always need help.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know we always need these other things, like put more hours in the days. There must be something else you can give. And if you were holding back, why are you holding back? Do you not love this group? Do you not trust us? Do you not want to be a part of us? Like, do you even want to be here? Because it looks like you don't?
Speaker 1:I would make a great cult leader, this one. I believe that the leader is right at all times that they have the exclusive means of knowing truth or giving validation. So a lot of times where, like, you'll hear something along the lines of I have all the answers I have, I have the great mind that, uh, everybody else needs to pay attention to if you.
Speaker 2:You read this book that I wrote. It will have all the answers.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. The thing is with cults is that, again, it doesn't matter if it's a church or a political cult or a local cult. You know the whole thing is that they're attacking. They attack our basic fundamental needs. So, just as I was kind of saying before about, like, a lot of the donations and the fact that you're giving such a high percentage to these things, and that's the thing is that then you become completely reliant on these people to meet your basic needs of food safety and things like that. Also, they kind of strive on the basic fact we all want to belong, we all want to. You know that's that is literally why we have relationships, whether it is a romantic relationship or friendships. You know we all want to be a part of society. Evolution. That is how we got to where we are today.
Speaker 1:We're social creatures what so and that's why, like one of the big things that I kind of say with, like depression, is, a lot of times people will become more isolated and things like that, and then it becomes this whole thing of like, the more isolated that you get, the more depressed that you get, the more depressed that you get, the more that you feel like you need to isolate Right. So they're going after our most basic needs the need to belong, the need to be able to feed ourselves, the need to have compassions, because, again, anybody who's outside of the cult, they are demonized. They are just trying to. It is, you know, whether it is the they're trying to bring down whatever it is that you built, or they're. Satan has a strong grip on these people and they're trying to get you too, and that's how the devil works. So one of the things is being able to spot the cult.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the things that being able to spot a cult is looking at the background of the leader. So a lot of these cults are going to be things where somebody was a used car salesman and then all of a sudden they realized that Jesus, that they were the second coming of Christ, or that they were a you know. Try not to get in trouble. I won't mention names. They were a science fiction author, started a whole religion based off of these writings. They were a TV celebrity spokesperson or whatever you know like nothing.
Speaker 2:Maybe, worked in real estate in New York. That's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 1:They have no background with you know, it is religion or or what they're trying to lead. Looking at education a lot of times like even if, uh, they have like some kind of degree. Looking at the school you know is a credit school or is it like a diploma mill.
Speaker 2:And when did they get it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, like looking at when did they get their degree or where did they get their degree? Because, again, there are so many of these diploma mills where you pay $10,000 and it's the University of Joe Smith.
Speaker 2:Because people don't look by the time you're getting your doctorate. Oftentimes people, especially if they're not in the field, they're not really looking at where you got it, Because it doesn't matter. You're now Dr Patchett, it's not Dr Patchett from Temple University. You know that part is just forgotten and people don't think to look into it and be like I've never heard of this place before. What?
Speaker 1:Looking at breast warrants or things like that, somebody again, you know, somebody who is a felon or something like that, or somebody who was caught using drugs and all of a sudden, now they're the second coming of Christ. Maybe not.
Speaker 2:Proceed with caution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of caution. Does their background actually align with their teachings? So, are, are they? Are they a huge christian person? But they've been married for three times and cheating on their spouses, not really correlating with the presence that they're trying to present. Yeah, looking at their doctrine, is it all or nothing thinking, you know? Is it? You're either with us or against us? Are you giving me your absolute loyalty or are you going to question me? Is the message clear and transparent? So are these people trying to present like a very clear ideology and if you do have any questions, you are able to ask, you know, rather than being like, oh no, no, no, no, we don't ask here. Looking at membership, three parts of a membership, uh, recruitment. The recruiter is not fully honest with their intent. So come join me, you know, and just yeah, I really want you to. To check out, you know like, uh, check out the church with me. They come in uh quickly I mean the.
Speaker 2:The baptism on the second time you came is wild to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, seriously, that took me completely, like I was like what?
Speaker 2:They lost a cult member right there.
Speaker 1:You could have joined.
Speaker 1:Changes in speech dressing and their changes in ideas very quickly. So all of a sudden they're saying like hey, like we want to have a looking at me with jeans and T-shirts. We really feel that in order to get closer, you know, to the Holy Spirit, you really want to present yourself better. So then there's the next stage of maintenance. So once they actually do have you in, they're going to ask you to recruit friends and family, because if you're able to recruit friends and family into it, then you're going to feel more and more secure, more and more secure. Again, that's going to give you more and more reason to participate in church activities rather than trying to seek outside activities for different things.
Speaker 2:And that's fewer people who can try and convince you to leave.
Speaker 1:Exactly Sleep deprivation In order to. So that was one of the things of like this place I went to was they would hold Bible studies. So after the dinner the dinner was like at 8 o'clock this girl asked me if I wanted to stay and do like a Bible study with. I was like at that point I was just like nope, nope, I'm done completely no, and do like a Bible study with with. I was like at that point I was just like Nope, nope, I'm done completely. No, no, this is just way, way, way.
Speaker 1:I got to get home now and that's when that guy gave me his number and yeah, food uh deprive, uh, starting to lose weight. I mean I, food uh deprive, uh, starting to lose weight. I mean I, I know, like, obviously I I don't think that they were going to do that before I joined, but like I didn't notice how, you know, the serving sizes were. If you, you know, truly believe and and just kind of how you were saying before, if you get cancer, it's because you didn't do this or that you were doing the wrong thing. Like you know, for you to better yourself, you know you really got to sit there and pray and you know to devote more to the group and everything like that.
Speaker 2:Yep, and if you really mean that God will heal you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then activities, activities, activities. So just as this guy was saying about like, oh, come on Saturdays and we have church on Saturdays and all have church on Saturdays and you know all these activities throughout the day. And the thing was, is that, yeah, a lot, you know, all of your free time was spent at the church? You were either studying the Bible or studying their Bible, you were, you were have like normal activities, so like sports, were have like normal activities, so like sports, and things like that. The entire team is comprised of people at the church, you know. So I mean, yeah, you are guaranteed not to be bored, but that's one way to look at it.
Speaker 1:But I mean, again, everything is, everything is completely dependent on the church, mm-hmm. And then the last thing is leaving. You know, like, if you see other people like asking like what is relationships with people who have left the church to church, well, if they say like we don't want anything to do with them, or they're ostracized, or we tend not to talk to them, that's a cult. So I'm going to kind of close off here. One of the things that's really really scary about cults is that it is impossible, once a loved one is in a cult, trying to get them out of a cult. Because, again, this is where all these different things come into play. You know, like any phone, anybody from the outside, they're, they're, they're. They have a a strong grip with satan or they have a strong grip with the evildoers and they're just trying to pull you away from this good thing.
Speaker 2:They're jealous.
Speaker 1:They're jealous. They want what you want, or that they want what you have.
Speaker 2:And they want to take it from you, so that you can't talk to them, can't be in contact with them, because they're going to take you down.
Speaker 1:you can't talk to them, can't be in contact with them because they're going to take you down. It's hard to try to convince somebody, because you can use all the logic that you want. You can sit there and talk to them until they're blue in the face, you know. The only thing that you can really do is say like hey, I love you, I'm here for you If you need anything and if they do have questions, being honest with them, but not saying that you're wrong. Yeah, because the moment that you say that you're wrong again, that feeds into that whole idea that they're just trying to pull you out. So ultimately, it's sad, but it comes down to the person saying like oh shit, maybe I'm in a cult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't feel good here anymore. I don't like this. I feel like I'm being punished. You know, I asked a question and there was this extreme punishment and I don't understand. So now I'm looking into it like shit. Now I have more questions and ooh. But most people will not go that route, unfortunately, I think.
Speaker 1:And that's why the only thing that you can do is just say if you need anything, I'm here for you. You're giving that person that opportunity to say like, okay, I don't feel good, I don't feel safe, even if I'm not prepared to leave the cult fully yet, I still have some place to go, that I can get away for a couple of days, and that again, even if they're in that spot, you don't want to say like you know, like, dude, you're in a cult, blah, blah, blah, you know. It's just. You have to let that person make that decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is hard, which?
Speaker 1:is hard, which is hard, it's extremely hard, especially the family. You know they lost whoever it was that went into it. They want them back and yeah. So, with that being said, where do we go from here?
Speaker 2:that being said, where do we go from here? So, as you said, there's once you're in or once somebody you know is in. They're probably not coming out. So, in this case, the best offense is defense, and that is paying attention to all of those signs that you just listed to be like, hey, there's this really cool group and I'm thinking about getting involved with them, be it a church, be it something else. I'm not going to plug the podcast because I have feelings about it. You know where this is going, but there is a podcast called Is it a Cult. You can go ahead and listen. If you haven't heard heard of it, go ahead and listen to a couple of episodes and then google it and read about the the case, the lawsuit between the two people. I'm just going to put that one out there if you get weird vibes, but I do appreciate the fact. Like, what originally drew me to that podcast was the fact that they were looking at, I mean, even things as wild as Disney adults. Like, are Disney adults a cult? And it opened my mind to the fact that, you know, anything can be a cult, as you, those things that you just listed.
Speaker 2:We tend to think about religion like as a top, and I would imagine that there are a lot of religious cults as compared to other ones. Like religion is one of those things you could very easily tie into this type of thing, but it doesn't have to. These don't have to be religious, they don't have to be political, and so it's important to, whenever you're looking at this group, as you said, if there's this like really charismatic leader, just do your research, just look them up Like it's not anything wrong, it's not anything bad, you're not doing something illegal. Just kind of get some information Like who is this group, what are they doing, and maybe you'll find that you're like, wow, this is really interesting. Like I feel like I would be a great match. Maybe you'll look at it and you'll go, hey, not a good match, but this is an okay group. Maybe you'll look at it like you did and you're like, oh, that's a cult.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think, being aware ahead of time that there are a lot of cults out there A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot and watching for those signs so that you can avoid it and you can call it out to the people around you before anyone is like you know what, I don't know, I you know, I think it would be fun to go back. Ain't wrong? We're not going back. We went that one time, whatever it was. That shit was crazy. We're not doing that.
Speaker 1:I agree, I think that education, knowing the background and everything. There's a wonderful book it's Combating Quote, Mind Control by Stephen Hussain. He was born into a cult in the 60s and once he realized that or I don't think, I'm not sure if he was born into he was a cult member and he realized that he was in a cult and once he got away from it then he really studied up on cults and everything like that. He got his doctorate. So that's a good book to read, but also, yeah, being educated on the entire cult as a background as a whole.
Speaker 2:Yeah and just be looking for those signs, because once you see them and know them, then they're much easier to kind of spot and be like ah, that's why I'm getting weird vibes. Like being able to have a name for the bad vibes that are coming off of this group that you have stumbled upon is important, because if you just go back to people and you're like, yeah, I don't know, this church wasn't for me, that's a whole different thing than you coming back to me like that was a cult and so that's why, like, I don't want anything to do that. And if this chick tries to talk to you about that, like be aware, this is what that is, then people will be like, oh no, now everyone stays away from it so, with all that being said, where would you put this on our scale of toxicity?
Speaker 1:would you say that this is a green potato, where you just chop off the green and you can still eat it? Is this a death cap mushroom, where you have a 50-50 shot of it killing you? Or would you say that this is antifreeze, where it's a delightful last meal?
Speaker 2:Antifreeze. I don't even have to. That was a really easy one. I've been waiting for this moment because as soon as you told me what we were talking about, I was like ooh, I know, I'm going to place it on the scale of toxicity.
Speaker 2:But it is. There's nothing good about cults. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. They only bring harm to people. And you can try and argue like, ooh, some of the people who are in the cult are happy they're doing well. They couldn't do well outside of the cult. Are you saying they couldn't have a regular, happy life without giving up 30% of their income, without having to support a leader who maybe sexually assaults young women? But surely they could also just have a normal life and be happy? They don't need this cult foundation to have a good life and to have friends. There's nothing extra that the cult is offering them and it just drives a wedge through society. It cuts people off. The reason why I've been looking into this and why I was aware of some of this stuff is because I'm maybe working on an upcoming episode about MLMs.
Speaker 1:Ooh.
Speaker 2:Ooh. So yeah, there's a lot of overlap there. Yeah, there's just there's nothing good that comes from them. It tears families apart, it tears communities apart, it allows bad behavior to fester and it gives it a place where it can like, hide and continue and where we excuse it and it becomes normalized and a freeze I would have to say, uh, I absolutely a thousand percent agree with you.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that you did bring up and I'm glad that you brought this up, because I this was something I I meant to kind of put in there people who go around saying like, well, at least they're happy in the group, you know, and things like that and the thing is is that I remember I had worked with somebody who had gotten out at one point.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to make it as big as possible. One of the things that actually kind of surprised me when I, when I was helping this person out, was that I had to teach them emotions, because it wasn't so much the idea that happiness because that person had happiness really well done. I had to teach them that it's okay to be pissed, that's okay to be angry, upset, because the whole thing is with Colts is that there is always that level of you're working towards something better and that everything that you do, any type of pain that you feel, you should feel grateful for, because that's all part of the building. So, whether it is a religious that you're building towards going to heaven or you know a group where you are building towards a better place. Anything or any type of pain, any type of mistreatment is all for the better good of the goal.
Speaker 2:Yep, so you just got to suck it up and be thankful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, and that was the thing was, when I helped this person out, I never, ever thought of that is that I actually had to teach this person how to be pissed.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. I wouldn't have fully expected that either. Yeah, but it makes sense that, like that wasn't something that they were allowed to feel like anger, disappointment, sadness.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like nope gone, we don't think, we don't think about those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they said that something or somebody had done something to them and I asked them well, how did it make you feel? And they're like well, you know, it's just, you know I'm okay with it, because I was like, oh, actually, are you, are you Like that would piss me off? Like that would piss me off? Speaking of quotes, you can follow us on social media. We have Facebook, we have X, we have TikTok.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You're always getting ahead of yourself here. We technically have X and TikTok. We are semi-active on Facebook, instagram and maybe Blue Sky. We're cutting out the shitty ones.
Speaker 1:Well, tiktok wasn't necessarily shitty, but you got yourself accidentally deleted from that, so good job, good job, but well, I'm thinking that TikTok is now on the evil side. Thank you so much for listening to us. We're looking forward to seeing you next week. My name is Big Christopher Patchett, lcsw and I've been Lindsay McLean bye bye.
Speaker 2:I've been Lindsay McLean. Bye, bye.
