What would you do if you witnessed someone in distress in public? This episode of the Toxic Cooking Show challenges you to rethink everything you know about the bystander effect and personal responsibility. This week Lindsay McClane with my co-host, Christopher Patchet, LCSW, we unravel the misconceptions surrounding the infamous Kitty Genovese case and discuss a hauntingly recent incident in London where bystanders failed to act during a sexual assault on a train. We shed light on the psychological stages that paralyze potential helpers and offers professional insights into the complexities of public mental health crises.
From the bustling streets of Philadelphia to the cultural melting pots of Paris and Moscow, we share eye-opening personal stories and discuss how societal norms shape our reactions to harassment. Discover the hidden intricacies of navigating public spaces like New York City's subways, and learn how hypervigilance can be a double-edged sword. We also tackle the tough question of why some people intervene in the face of inappropriate behavior while others remain silent. Through these anecdotes, we aim to shed light on the cultural factors that influence bystander behavior and emphasize the importance of early intervention to prevent escalation.
Facing the moral and emotional conflicts of public intervention is no easy task, especially when substance abuse is involved. This episode explores the emotional weight of such decisions, highlighting studies that reveal surprising patterns in human behavior during emergencies. We offer practical strategies for confronting derogatory remarks and discuss the significance of empathy and public awareness in mitigating the bystander effect. Join us as we push the boundaries of social norms and explore ways to build a more responsible and compassionate society, one act of courage at a time.
What would you do if you witnessed someone in distress in public? This episode of the Toxic Cooking Show challenges you to rethink everything you know about the bystander effect and personal responsibility. This week Lindsay McClane with my co-host, Christopher Patchet, LCSW, we unravel the misconceptions surrounding the infamous Kitty Genovese case and discuss a hauntingly recent incident in London where bystanders failed to act during a sexual assault on a train. We shed light on the psychological stages that paralyze potential helpers and offers professional insights into the complexities of public mental health crises.
From the bustling streets of Philadelphia to the cultural melting pots of Paris and Moscow, we share eye-opening personal stories and discuss how societal norms shape our reactions to harassment. Discover the hidden intricacies of navigating public spaces like New York City's subways, and learn how hypervigilance can be a double-edged sword. We also tackle the tough question of why some people intervene in the face of inappropriate behavior while others remain silent. Through these anecdotes, we aim to shed light on the cultural factors that influence bystander behavior and emphasize the importance of early intervention to prevent escalation.
Facing the moral and emotional conflicts of public intervention is no easy task, especially when substance abuse is involved. This episode explores the emotional weight of such decisions, highlighting studies that reveal surprising patterns in human behavior during emergencies. We offer practical strategies for confronting derogatory remarks and discuss the significance of empathy and public awareness in mitigating the bystander effect. Join us as we push the boundaries of social norms and explore ways to build a more responsible and compassionate society, one act of courage at a time.
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we break down toxic people into their simplest ingredients. I'm your host for this week, lindsay McLean, and with me is my fantastic co-host.
Speaker 2:Christopher Patchett, LCSW.
Speaker 1:So this week is a continuation on last week. We broke it up into two parts so that we could actually have time to discuss the personal responsibility aspect of this and really be able to get into talking about where do we go from here? Like, what can we do to fix this, improve on this, not be such shitty human beings? To recap, which obviously you listened to last week Of course you did. You wouldn't dare miss an episode of the Toxic Cooking Show. Never, our listeners always come back.
Speaker 1:We were talking about all sorts of delightful murder stories was the direction I decided to take us. So we had started off with the story of Kitty Genovese, which I think most people know. She was the woman who was raped and stabbed to death outside her apartment building in New York in 1964. And this was what kind of started a soul-searching moment, because supposedly during this attack, all these neighbors saw and heard and they did nothing. And there was this idea that people didn't want to get involved. And I think they said there were like 30, some people who like saw or heard at the time and none of them did anything, like they didn't call the police. And we now know that's actually not true. People did actually call the police and somebody did come outside. They just people weren't aware of what was happening, as she was being murdered, which sounds wild, but it's also the middle of a giant fucking city and we also know that her lungs had been punctured at some point by one of the stabbings, so she probably wasn't screaming as loudly as one might have imagined.
Speaker 1:So this is what led us to this idea of the bystander effect, which states that in the presence of others, the individual is discouraged from intervening because they feel like they may be judged, they feel like they may not have responsibility. They're kind of assuming that somebody else is going to step in and do something. And again, there are a lot of instances we went over, like the one in London where a woman was literally raped on the train. People saw and only one person reported it, and that person had a child with them. And they've actually found that when a child is present, people are far more likely to do something. They're far more likely to report or intervene intervene probably because they feel this pressure of like, oh shit, the kids watching, I gotta do the right thing. But the fact that that was the only person who stepped in, who made a police report about this. The whole fucking train saw this happen. You can't tell me that other people weren't aware of what was going on. But again, this bystander effect, they just they sat back and was like I don know, I don't want to get involved, I don't like, what do I, what do I do? I'm just going to pretend like I don't see, and that will make it go away.
Speaker 1:So obviously, with the bystander effect and with all of this that we've been talking about, there are a lot of different ways that we could look at this. Of course, there are some that are really focused on domestic abuse. So men going after women it could be women going after men I didn't find any examples of that, but I am positive that they exist of women also mistreating, murdering men out in public and everyone being like, oh my God, whoops, I didn't do anything anyway. So what are your feelings about this? Because you talked a little bit about your experiences with this, but I kind of want to go into that a little bit more and talk about what is our personal responsibility when, a you see somebody being mistreated like this and, b a little bit less sexually violent, when you just see somebody out in public who may not be having a good time, especially given your line of work.
Speaker 1:What do you think people's responsibility is? To do something you know. For instance, like I'll give you an example, one of the grocery stores I go to here there is a guy who you can hear him before you see him. I don't know if he's having delusions, I don't know if it's drugs or something. He's not having a good time and he's very loud at the grocery store and, admittedly, I avoid him because I don't know what to do. I don't have the training to step in and be like hi, sir, can I help you in French? And clearly nobody else is. So, yeah, two different paths to look at. What are your thoughts about everybody's personal responsibility when you see either one of these cases?
Speaker 2:You mentioned there was five stages last week and yeah, I was just going to say maybe it's a good time to kind of remind the people of what they are thank you I I appreciate you catching me.
Speaker 1:It's sitting right here with my notes in front of my face. I just ignored it the five processes the bystanders have to go through. Are you? You notice what's happening, obviously. Then you interpret if this is an emergency or not. Then you have to figure out the degree of responsibility you personally feel towards this. The fourth step is deciding what form of assistance you could give, and the fifth one is when you actually implement whatever action choice you have made.
Speaker 2:Thank you, vanna White. You're welcome, and so the reason why I kind of said about that is that, yeah, each situation is going to be independent. So I talked about it last week about where, coming home from Temple University and seeing a woman in 30 degree weather or zero degree Celsius, thank you.
Speaker 2:Taking off her sweater and yelling it's fucking hot outside, it's fucking hot. Obviously she was having some kind of mental breakdown or she was on drugs, but yeah, there's really nothing I can do as far as like. If I were to go over there to try to put something around her, then she's not going to be mentally stable enough for me to be like here, put this on. You don't want to flash the entire neighborhood of North Philadelphia because if she's dead in that place in the first place, then she could hit me, she could do bite me or whatever. And if she bites me then, you know, there's maybe a whole nother list of things that I now have to get checked out for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that's what scares most people away, is that it certainly for me? I look at that. I'm like I see this man in the grocery store. I'm like I don't, I'm not equipped to help you, sir.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to get bit, I don't want to get hit, I don't Nope, I'm just this other aisle right here and and even now, being a therapist, like you know, like it's not like I can pull out two chairs and say you know, like, please tell me about. Like, uh, what was your childhood?
Speaker 1:like you know, please tell me you don't carry just like a folding couch with you that you can like open and like put them down, like lie here and you sit there and you're like so so this, since this is the first time I've seen you stripping down naked?
Speaker 2:uh, I just wanted to do a background evaluation and see.
Speaker 1:Obviously that's what you do.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you know, I mean, even with the qualifications I do have, there's not much I can do in that situation, or even like the guy that you're saying about in the grocery store situation, or or even it like the, the guy that you're saying about in the grocery store fighting wise, like or or aggression.
Speaker 1:And then I spoke about this where you know again, uh, I'm not a fighting person, even though I am six foot two and a big dude like I don't like funny you know I always describe you to people if they've never met you before as he looks like he would punch you into the ground for looking at you wrong, but he's actually afraid to hurt a fly. I feel like this is accurate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I will admit, if I was driving my motorcycle and I got caught into a motorcycle gang riding alongside of me, I would blend in perfectly Like nobody would be like, yep, he's part of that gang and so, yeah, you know, like I'm not a fighting person, but one of the things is is that I've always used my size for intimidation and just in situations like that. Uh, so I haven't really needed to fight, which is probably not a good thing to say like over.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm giving away all my best secrets and now, eventually, see me like I know he won't do anything, I can go punch him but, like I said, I mean I I've probably only had to fight like maybe a handful of times in my life and that's just because of the fact that I've always been tall, I've always been, and people generally do not mess around with that.
Speaker 1:That's true. But before even getting to the fighting part, do you not think that if more men kind of stood up against this type of thing, that maybe other dudes would act? Better thing that maybe other dudes would act better? Because in my mind I think a lot of this is happening. Because men know that they can get away with it, they know that nobody's gonna stop them, they know that nobody's gonna like tell them to fuck off. At the most somebody may film them and maybe you have somebody who reports it. But it's not like you're gonna be on this subway car and you know three dudes are going to see you and like run over and pull you off the girl and be like fuck you man, start beating you up. Like you don't even get to that point because men are just like I don't know, I don't see it either I, I.
Speaker 2:Well. So what are you saying?
Speaker 1:like, uh, if somebody is acting aggressive, like a bunch of guys kind of getting in, Not necessarily, but I think people we talked about this last time too that you know, when you learn to do CPR, for instance, they always tell you the point. So I'd be like you call 911 because you have to like single somebody out. And I think that because of this bystander effect, because nobody moves, nobody moves Like nobody's going to do anything and I'm just curious what your thoughts are, not even like getting into a fight with somebody, but like if you saw a dude harassing a woman on the subway, for instance. You know, do you think that if a guy kind of like stepped in in any way, that other guys would also react? And do you think that by that one guy stepping in the dude who was being a little bitch, would back off.
Speaker 2:Tell me the bro code. You know what? I think that if someone you know, it does take that first person to step in, and I think that there is a chance that other people would step in with them. But then again, now you're kind of like talking about that whole thing of okay, well, there's a chance that somebody else will come in, but there's also a chance that I end up being the only one, that I end up being the only one. Yeah, so it's kind of one of those things where you're kind of taking a huge risk of other people like stepping in. You're taking a huge risk of your own safety, especially like you know, like with guys like and I told you about the incident at the laundromat and this is probably very common as far as like where the guy you know just a real fast recap, the guy was pointing or directing his anger towards the woman at the laundromat you know saying you know, fucking, hurry up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And the moment I stepped in in, all that anger and aggression got redirected to me yeah, you are now the source, the target so so now it's just like, okay, like, um, yeah, nobody wants to be told to stop, nobody wants to be told, like you know, it's not like you know, like, hey, man, fucking lay off, okay, oh man, oh man, you right pal, I should stop. So, yeah, you know, like that's kind of one of the things is now you're taking that chance of having that anger and aggression directed at you. So it's scary.
Speaker 1:I can definitely understand that. So I've lived in in terms of like big cities. I've lived in Philadelphia, paris and Moscow, all three of which have had like metros, subways, whatever the fuck you want to call it.
Speaker 1:The underground for our British friends Pip-pip cheerio. Yeah, you know, and I've written on all of these. I've lived like in the city-city in all of these big cities and I've certainly seen my fair share of harassment go down. But I do think it's interesting to note the difference between Paris and Moscow, because that's where I've ridden the metro the most. So you've been to Moscow, you've been on the metro there Absolutely stunning, it's beautiful and it's clean. Does not smell like piss, which I cannot say about any other metro that I've ridden. This is the one that is nice. But people there are actually.
Speaker 1:My experience anyway was that you didn't fuck with people. Somebody would actually step in. Like there were a couple times that you would see a dude being weird and if it was towards another woman, if it was towards a woman, you were far more likely to see other dudes like do something about it, whereas I can't tell you the number of times in paris you see something kind of weird going down and everyone looks at it and then they just look away. It's like nobody's. Paris is also really bad about like they don't help anyone, they won't help you move things. Like you'll see a woman with a stroller like hit a set of steps and the only people who will help her are foreigners guaranteed so wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop.
Speaker 2:So you're telling me that french people are very much into themselves I?
Speaker 1:I know that's really shocking. There isn't that stereotype at all that parisians are like super snooty and the rest of you can go get fucked. I know that's a new concept, but uh, yes, that is what I'm saying we'll see.
Speaker 2:We learn something new every day.
Speaker 2:Wow, you know I'm so okay.
Speaker 2:I think of like uh, you know, like new york city I love when I I talk to uh clients and I talk about hypervigilance and things like that, and the example that I always use is you know, like, anytime that you're on the subway, you know at one end you're always going to have some guy pissing in the corner and at the other end you're going to have some guy yelling and cursing out like to himself, and every client I've had like like understanding exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:So you know, and that if it's that common where I can use that in like much therapy, therapy session, then you know like, um, yeah, no, no. No matter what car you're in, you know, no matter what time of the day, somebody's gonna be pissing off in this corner, somebody is gonna be yelling at themselves in that corner, uh, and that's just the way it is. Uh, and it's kind of hard um to you know, when you're kind of trained to keep to yourself whenever you're hearing yelling and screaming, to not look up, because if you look up and look over at the person who's yelling at himself, yeah, and you make eye contact with them oh you're done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it's better to hear screaming and yelling and just not pay attention to it.
Speaker 1:Oh, parisians will look, they have no shame, they will absolutely just like, look at what's happening and be like not my problem and go back to being French. I see less people having mental breakdowns in the subway here than I did in Philly, but I've only been to New York a couple of times so can't really make a good estimate of, like you know. But again, philadelphia, from what I saw there, yeah, there was always somebody doing that. You have less of that here. You just have a lot more of people being really inappropriate on the subway. Just, I talked about hair sniffing guy before you know, you have that type of thing that's really common here, plus pickpocketing.
Speaker 1:I remember at one point I was coming back this was about 10 years ago, so I was a little baby and I was coming back from something. I literally saw a dude get like pickpocketed in front of me and I was like, oh my God. And the older of me and I was like oh my God. And the older lady next to me was like it's just like that sometimes, ma'am, do you not care? Like she wasn't going to do anything. And I do partially get that, like you said. You know you being like a big dude, it's intimidating, you know you can more easily step in and be like hey, don't do that. And if they're a little wuss, they're probably going to back off out of fear. What are they going to do with me? If I'm like hey, you should stop that. Like no, I'm gonna get stepped on. There's not a lot that I can do, but you and I were talking right before we started recording.
Speaker 2:You brought up the topic of so, yes, yes, we were talking and I said I wish I would have done this program 10 years ago, because of the fact that I do remember sitting. It was a lunch break with two of my male friends from work and we're sitting there in the pizza shop and both of them are one was dating, one was married and they're talking about like oh yeah, you know, I was talking to this hot chick last night, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I felt uncomfortable to you know, kind of step up and be like yo guys. You know, like, come on, you're fucking dating somebody, you're fucking married. What the fuck is up with you? Like you know? Like you know, why are you trying to fucking hit up on these other people?
Speaker 1:So for that, I think that is tied into this like violence against people. Because I think that is tied into this like violence against people, because I think, to my mind correct me if I'm wrong when you have that type of thing, that's okay. Where it's like, oh yeah, we can do this, and like nobody's going to say anything, that's how it slowly escalates to the point that, like now, we're chopping off women's heads in public with samurai swords, as we spoke about before. Or you know, shooting people in public because we're chopping off women's heads in public with samurai swords, as we spoke about before. Or you know, shooting people in public because we're mad at them Because what are you going to do? Like I've already been violent to you in, like smaller circles and nobody said anything, and I'm used to talking shit about you and about women in general and nobody says anything. Like nobody comes back and is like, hey, man, like I don't think that's okay, like I don't think you should be talking like that, like I think that's, if we were to stop that sooner and people were to come in sooner and be like I don't think you should do that, then I don't think we would get to as many issues like this, where we're, you know, raping women in subway cars in the middle of the day and nobody does anything.
Speaker 1:And I told you when you said you're like I didn't know what to do. I was like I've got this pro tip for you and this is my. So this is what I use when people are being racist. I have not had to use it in a while, thank God, but I too used to always panic when somebody would you know, as you said, they start talking about you like shit, what do I say? Like I should say something Right, but like what do I say? And what I finally learned to do is to just think of a phrase ahead of time, like decide what I'm going to say and just use that whenever it comes up.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, if somebody says something really racist, you can just be like, oh, wow, that was really bold of you. And they're like oh, to say that out loud, that shuts people down. If you just call them out on their bullshit straight away, I've heard other people will come up with other different things where it's just you say wow, could you expand on that? Or why would you think that? Say wow, you know, could you expand on that or why would you think that's a probe and you can be a lot more direct and be like why would you even say that? But I found that putting in a little bit of sarcastic humor tends to make people a little uncomfortable, because they know that they fuck that, they know that they shouldn't say like, oh yeah, I'm married. But I'm married. But like, look at this hot chick. But they're going to do it anyway Cause they think they can get away with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, yeah, I, I so. So you know one thing that you you did bring up and and this actually made me remember a incident I had on a train in Philadelphia, oh, yes, had on a train in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2:Ah yes, working at a nonprofit and one of the clients I had to go see. The joys of nonprofit is you don't have a vehicle, you get to use public transportation all throughout the day. Oh, yeah, um, so I was. It was about 12 o'clock, uh, in philadelphia, and I'm sitting there and I see a guy and his girlfriend.
Speaker 2:I presume that the guy was going off and saying like you know, like, um, you know like, oh, you fucking bitch, if you would have done this and we would have had heroin. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So apparently they're both, you know, drug addicts and and they were trying to get heroin and, uh, I guess she didn't do it the way that he had planned it or whatever, and therefore they didn't get the heroin, which. So now this guy is calling her bitch and saying like you know, you stupid bitch, and you know, fuck you. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I sat there and I kept an eye on them and the thing was, is that, just as you were kind of saying about like not stepping in during those smaller moments, uh, and the thing was, is that they got up? Uh, they got out of the station, or we pulled into the station. They got up and they they uh the doors open and just as they walked out of the door, I see her, or I see him punching her.
Speaker 1:Oh, and that was nice.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, it was one of these things where I I saw, then I got up and I was about to run after him, doors closed. But yeah, you know, it was one of those moments where it's like, you know, like shit, like I should have said something when he was calling her stupid bitch and shit like that, because maybe, but yeah, you know, like you trying to find that line, because, again, just as you were saying, like you know, like evaluating everything, like that, like okay, him being mad about not getting heroin, you know that that's one is this a safe situation that I want to put myself into the middle of and say no, no, let's not fight and well, it's not even that.
Speaker 2:but like you know, like yeah, like you know, like where, where is that line between, like you know, like him being upset and calling her a stupid bitch? Especially when you're talking about somebody who's in active addiction, they're not exactly thinking logically and being like, yeah, you know what, I really shouldn't call her a stupid bitch for not getting us heroin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you right fam.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that does kind of produce that like well, you know like, if I would have interjected, like you know like would he have had the balls to hit her like the moment that they left the train.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is a really fine line to walk and I get it. I'm not fully blaming everyone in this situation. I'm not saying that you know everyone. For instance, in that subway car where the woman was raped in London that you know, they all should have jumped up. Some people literally may not have seen. That's completely possible. I mean, if you're at the opposite end, you're not going to see or hear what's going on, necessarily. But it's just, it's yeah, surely you would have a few more people who might like say or do something. You would hope that at least a couple of them again, you know, you notice it be like, oh shit, that's not okay. And then it's like if everybody was thinking about that, you'd be more likely to have somebody who would step in and be like, oh, you should stop that. But as you said, I mean you had already, as you were about to get up, yeah, if the doors are closing, whoops.
Speaker 1:But segwaying into our like most recent segment that you added to the show, which I do really like, by the way. I'm glad you added that. Where do you think that we should go from here? Like, how do you think that we can work on this, both in the instance like you described, of not necessarily well I mean it did turn into abuse but stuff like that, where you see somebody like not doing well and you're like, should I do something? Should I go talk to them? Should I like make sure everything's okay all the way to? You know that type of thing. You see somebody out in public who is like hitting someone. You see somebody getting violent or nasty to someone. What do you think is the correct way for people to to deal with that and what can we start working on?
Speaker 2:I think one of the best ways of starting on this is as a bystander, talking to another bystander and making sure that you know you might gather like two or three other people and say like, hey, look, you know, you know I I'm getting, I'm going to jump in and like, you know, like, say something, I just want to make sure that you guys got my back. I like that being able to because, again, you know, if that's one of the things that is going to scare a lot of people is, oh my God, if I go into this and I'm by myself, all that anger and everything like that is going to be directed towards me and now I'm fucked. Yeah. So being able to say to two or three other people and being like hey, look, I'm going to take that step and I'm going to jump in, I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page. And if two or three of them say, yeah, three of you go up as a group and then the one guy being like yo, get the fuck off of her.
Speaker 1:I like that. I hadn't even thought to suggest that. It would be interesting to see because I think the statistic I pulled out last time was there was a study. It would be interesting to see because I think the statistic I pulled out last time was there was a study and they found that when presented with a woman who would like fall and hurt herself, 70% of people who were alone would like attempt to help the woman, but if they were like next to a stranger, only 40% of them would. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2:So wait, if they were next to a stranger, what's?
Speaker 1:If they were, I don't remember exactly how they had, but basically there was the test subject who was either alone with a friend or with a stranger, like walking somewhere, and there was a woman who had like fallen and hurt herself in quotation marks and if they were alone, 70 of people would make an attempt to help her, versus if they were alone, 70% of people would make an attempt to help her, versus if they were with a stranger, only 40% of them did. It didn't clarify what with a stranger meant. I assume it was just okay you happen to be walking along and a stranger starts, as you do, walking next to you on the street.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, like if I'm sure a lot of them are thinking that, okay, that is the closest person mm-hmm and I would hope that if the the stranger kept on walking by or kept on walking mm-hmm within you know five seconds, uh, somebody else, the next closest person or whatever, be like hey, you know, like, let me help you out. I would really want to see, like the, the video on that of how they kind of I would love to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was a study from, I think, like the 60s or 70s, so you could probably find more information about it. I don't know if they ever filmed it, unfortunately. See they, look you could. You could probably find more information about it. I don't know if they ever filmed it, unfortunately. See they, look you could. You could do this in new york, just stage a whole study, study this. Haven't you always wanted to get your doctorate? No, no, no you're done with school. No more school.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:Boo, you're no fun.
Speaker 2:I said the only reason why I would ever get my doctorate is because I would be that person. Everybody else I'd be totally fine with, but my older sister. I would be like hey, chris, no, no, that's Dr Patchett.
Speaker 1:It's only Dr Patchett. I would have to change your name in my phone. You've got some delightful name, like all of my closest friends do. You would have to get changed to Dr Patchett in there.
Speaker 2:But my sister kind of ruined that idea and she's like so what I'm hearing is I would be your inspiration of being a doctor.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh, well, now it's not fun anymore.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not going to do it ah, but yeah, I, I think, um, I, I would like to see the study on that and but I would hope that if the stranger walking, uh, next to next to walking next to her, keeps on walking, that somebody else would kind of pick up the slack. Mm-hmm, yeah, I think that trying to make the things as safe as possible for yourself and you know we're all trying to survive and you know, help people out.
Speaker 1:No, it's true. I would love to see there be more campaigns about this type of thing. Cause again, like I said, the the guy in the grocery store here. You can see when people hear him and they're like oh no, oh no, oh no. What do we?
Speaker 1:do Nobody knows what to do, and he clearly comes in there and he is buying stuff, so he's not just wandering around, which is why I think maybe store employees aren't doing anything. But I would love for there to be more information campaigns, talking people through. Know what might you do if you see a person in distress, what are some steps that you can take, as opposed to simply avoiding it? And then maybe a little training for people who are more likely to find themselves in these situations to say okay, you notice this, you're an employee here, what is the company policy on this type of thing? Because otherwise I think people just kind of panic and they don't know what to do and the best thing you can do is just hope that it goes away. Like, bury your head in the sand, be like I don't see it, I don't hear it, I don't nothing, and eventually it goes away and you're like're like thank God I didn't have to intervene, which I get to a certain extent, cause if you don't know what to do, you couldn't pay me to be in that situation Be like you go talk to that man right there. No, thank you, no, thank you. I need a lot of money for that.
Speaker 1:And then when it moves into to violence, I would love for people to maybe take a minute and put themselves in the other person's shoes. Um, because and if you've lived in the big city I promise you have maybe not you because you look terrifying, but most of the rest of us plebes have had a moment where, like somebody has been inappropriate to us or has been weird to you, and we all know how it feels. It's really awkward when you've got somebody holding your hair and being like actually, I hope nobody else has experienced that. It's traumatic. It's 10 years later and I still think about it, about it. But there are a lot of little steps I think that people can take and should take. I mean, something that I've done in the past is you see two people having a fight on the street? This is france.
Speaker 1:That happens a lot and you sometimes just stop and stare at them and because I feel safe enough doing that. Because if I stop and stare from across the street and a dude turns to me and is like what the fuck bitch? I have time to run away, admittedly, but in several instances they'll notice that you're staring at them and it calms stuff down. They realize that they got a little too heated out in public and the people are like like what's the drama? And it's certainly, you know, I don't know if then they go home and beat up their wife, that may be what happens, but even doing something as small as that is making somebody realize. It's like no, I see what you're doing, like I'm literally standing here staring at you like this. That seems to make, it seems to have an effect.
Speaker 2:You know. So there, there's one thing that that I just kind of remembered, and and this is something that, uh, so 2008, I was living in Los Angeles and I did a self experiment and I said you know what? So remember this 2008,. This is before, um, this is just as smartphones were starting to come out. Uh, so I mean, I think in 2008, I probably had, like the flip phone. Um, so, you know, I, I, I wasn't able to be engrossed into instagram, twitter, facebook videos. All this it was. You know, I did have.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, like you still had texting we usually still had to pay per text back then.
Speaker 2:I think I know I did in 2009.
Speaker 1:It was still like you had 250 texts per month or something.
Speaker 2:No, so I think, I, I think by that point I I was doing like unlimited texting for $5 a month.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So it was. It was still like an added thing, but it wasn't like oh God, I'm aging myself big time. It wasn't. It used to be like when phones first came out it was 10 cents per text that you sent out and 10 cents per text that you got in, and there was no, like you know, like you got free hundred texts or anything like that. So it was.
Speaker 1:You'll be real careful with your words.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. So smartphones still weren't popular, so again 2008,. I figured we're getting so engrossed into our phones. What I'm gonna do is, you know, because I use public transportation, I'm gonna go a week without you know, like I'm not gonna have, uh, you know, I keep my phone in my pocket. I'm not gonna have my ipad or, oh god, ipod, because you know you had to have a separate thing for your music.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I remember those days.
Speaker 2:You know, so I would leave my flip phone in my pocket and then I had not had my iPod and I was like I'm going to do this for a week and you know, see how things go. And so that experiment lasted three days. So after about the fourth time of hearing, like you know, like I remember, the final point was. Point was you know, like I, I saw a guy, and you know I didn't have my headphones in and you know, looked over and you know he, he nodded and I nodded back, and so we're talking for a little bit and he's like, yeah, man, you know, I just got a jam in and you know, thanks to jesus man, my life is and started going into, like this whole Jesus thing. I was just like, oh, fuck again. Again, I was because I probably heard the Jesus thing like maybe two times the other two days and I was like this is why we have to be on our phones.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. I had a similar incident here in paris. I walked a friend to a metro, um because she was visiting, and on my way back there was this woman who looked kind of confused who stopped to be like do you live around here? And I thought she just like needed help finding something. So I was like yeah, you know what is it? Because I I was trying to be nice and she's like I want to talk to you about jesus. I was like I am very busy.
Speaker 2:I need to go.
Speaker 1:I don't actually live around here, goodbye.
Speaker 2:All that. So I think that that's kind of something else. That kind of plays into this whole thing is that, yeah, you know, fuck if I'm going to leave my headphones at home.
Speaker 1:Right? No, because then the weirdos come out and they get to you. Fuck, if I'm going to leave my headphones at home Right?
Speaker 2:No, because then the weirdos come out and they get to you. So you know, and it kind of makes a little bit more sense of you know, like the person, the woman getting raped. I mean, if you're sitting there on a train, you can be the seat behind them, you know, and unless you're noticing're noticing, you know, like movement going around, you're going to be sitting there, you're going to be scrolling, you're going to have your headphones in, yeah, and it's going to be blaring music, so you can't hear anything, you can't see anything.
Speaker 1:meanwhile, the person right in front of you is getting raped yeah, no, that that is very true, and that's why my my last point for what I would like people to work on from here is really nipping this type of thing in the bud. When you hear people make derogatory comments and this goes for everything, so being like, oh yeah, you know your story about seeing your friends for lunch and like the gross stuff they were talking about when you hear people make racist comments, it goes for everything bad. When you let that type of thing, I think, build up within the friend group we've all been there where you're sitting around, you're having fun, you're hanging out, and somebody just comes out of left field with something and you're like, oh no, that was not supposed to be said.
Speaker 1:That's gross, but nobody wants to kill the vibes, nobody wants to be the one to call them out and be like don't fucking say that, get out of here. I think that that is the first step, is calling them out, making it known. It's like you don't say that, you don't say racist things, you don't say derogatory things towards people in general men or women, at the very least not in this friend group. You're not going to. If you want to go find other friends to do that, I can't stop you, but I'm not going to be implicit in it, because I think that's where it all starts is that you start by making a few little off-color jokes or something and people laugh because it's funny, and then over time it kind of builds to saying more and more outlandish things because you can and nobody's saying no, and so you feel validated. It's like, well, this is an okay thing to say and think, and before you know it, you've fallen headfirst into women hating territory. And it's not just men who can do this, obviously. I mean women can absolutely go the same route.
Speaker 1:I would love to see people get a little bit better about just right then, standing up really quick and being like you don't get to say that and that's what helped me with the racist thing is like thinking of what I'm going to say ahead of time. It's's like I will always say this this is my phrase. That was really bold of you, because you see it in their eyes. They're like, oh fuck, I'm being called that like nobody has ever questioned it. As like a oh, you're right, that was really bold of me, thank you. Or turned it into a fight. It's never escalated. It's been clear enough that, like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let you keep saying this, like I'm just going to call it out now. So what's your catchphrase going to be? I'm putting you on the spot, sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have to think about that. I, I, I actually kind of like you know, just as you said, like you know, just as you said, like you know, like that's a bold thing to say, I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems to catch them. There's another one that I've heard women use or seen people say online that's like this thing you can say when somebody makes like a sexist joke or like a gross joke, whatever, you can just be like I don't get it, can you explain that to me? Because then they have to break it down Like why it? Can you explain that to me? Because then they have to break it down like why is it funny to say this really inappropriate thing? And you could just keep being like I don't get it, like why is it funny? Sorry, could you explain it again? See, there are all sorts of little ways you can just like shame people and then we don't get to. But ideally, I think anyway, if you stop it there, then we don't get to. Ideally I think anyway, if you stop it there, then we don't get to the really gross stuff, because we never, just we just don't make it that far.
Speaker 2:I dig it, mm hmm.
Speaker 1:So where would you put this idea of the bystander effect on our scalotoxicity and specifically personal responsibility, to the bystander effect as well? Do you think that this is a green potato problem? It'll make you sick if you eat it, but also you probably shouldn't have eaten green potatoes. We all know not to do that. Is it a death cap mushroom, 50-50 chance of death? Or is this antifreeze a delicious but deadly last meal?
Speaker 2:damn this is actually kind of a hard one.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad I get to ask you when you're put on the spot first because it's definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean you know when you're talking about, like you know, like people getting raped right in front of you is definitely not a green potato.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You know. But at the same time, like the point that I kind of said earlier about fuck if I leave my house without my headphones, so it's kind of like you know damn if you do, damn if you don't. Kind of like you know damn if you do, damn if you don't which, yeah, I. I think that that this kind of defines a great or a death cap, because I mean, you're talking from both aspects. You're talking from the bystander themselves. You know they're putting their safety at risk if they even do see this or if they even do hear this.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of factors that are going into like should I be able or can I help this person out? And you know all the factors of what we've talked about, like being on the subway, especially in a large city, you're kind of trained to ignore things, because that cry for help could be somebody who is just mentally ill and the moment you look up now you're the focus of their attention. So it's that. But at the same time, if a person's getting fucking raped in the subway, that's not fucking good either.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I would actually agree with you that this is a solid death cap mushroom. The death cap mushroom is you got like a 50% chance of death or coma if you eat this thing, even if it's been cooked. 50% chance, though. Got like a 50 chance of death or coma if you eat this thing, even if it's been cooked. 50 chance, though, like it's not a sure way towards death, because we've had some pretty nasty stuff on this show thankfully not every single episode, because those are always oh god, this one is rough. I think it obviously can turn deadly, as we spoke about last week, even if it doesn't involve people being killed. It can involve sexual abuse, rape, all of that, which is just really really nasty stuff, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. It's quite a broad thing topic. So, yeah, I would also say it's a death cap mushroom. Look, we agreed a death cap mushroom.
Speaker 2:Look, we agreed.
Speaker 1:So, whether you agree with us or not, we'd like to hear from you. You can write to us, as always at toxic, at awesome life skillscom, or you can contact and follow us on social media. We have Instagram. We have Facebook. We have Twitter, slash X. We have threads where you get into all sorts of great discussions with people. Do we have anything else? I think that's it. That's more than enough. I'm too old for this shit.
Speaker 2:Listen to you, Granny.
Speaker 1:I know it's hard being old.
Speaker 2:I remember back in the day when we just had Instagram and Twitter.
Speaker 1:It's just so many things to update, but we do look forward to hearing from you. We always love getting notes messages. I think some people have also messaged us or left comments on Spotify, which is always nice. Go, rate us wherever you. Listen to us, of course, and we will see you guys next week. Have a great week. Bye.